On 14/01/2013 2:09 AM, alex wrote:
> On 13 January 2013 07:08, Ross Bencina <rossb-lists_at_audiomulch.com> wrote:
>> On 13/01/2013 11:27 AM, alex wrote:
>>> I agree but there are two things being conflated:
>>>
>>> [programming] -> [music] -> [audience] (1)
>>> [programming] -> [audience] (2)
>>
>> That's a telling picture.
>>
>> Are you suggesting, Alex, that in live coding music becomes a medium for
>> performing the art of programming? In this case perhaps some knowledge of
>> programming *is* necessary to appreciate the performance.
>
> No, not in that sense.
>
> I'm suggesting that as much as guitar playing *is* music, then so is coding.
I have a feeling we have such different perspectives that your previous
statement is not clear to me.
> I like Christopher Small's view of Musicking that includes ticket
> sales as musical behaviour. That's a bit extreme, but once you think
> of music in terms of activity rather than product
You're setting up an oposition here between activity and product. But
there are other possibilities.
For one, I tend to think of music as a platonic truth like a structure
of mathematical relationships or an algorithm. This is pre-product,
pre-activity.
Even if you're not prepared to entertain an idealised platonic realm:
music arises in the imagination of the composer (subjective platonic
realm if you like). Similarly it arises as a resonance in the mind of
the audience member.
I'm not really up with theories of social constructions of imagination
but I don't think this idea of what music is connects directly with
Musicking or product either.
> it's natural to
> think of programming and programs as music, just as we think of
> traditional scores[as music]
You've really lost me here. I *don't* think of traditional scores as music.
Scores are a notation to direct the performance of an act that (at its
best) renders music.
The fact that traditional scores have come to be seen as music is one of
the great tragedies of the western tradition. Scores were created as an
aid to memory. Via a historical process some came to associate music
with the score.. but there is no more music in the score than there is
poetry in a book.
To think of scores as music is cargo-cultism.
Of course this poses a massive problem for generative theories. Since if
the score is not the music, the best that can be hoped for is a
generative theory of scores, not of music.
> and group hand clapping as music.
I'm with you here at least.
> Music here is a
> form of cultural entrainment, and I think live coding allows
> non-programmers to entrain with programmers, not by reading the code,
> but by seeing it being typed in, and hearing the results.
That's interesting. Entraining with programmers via music. I wonder what
other examples of inter-activity entrainment exist?
> Some might see this as bringing technologists and non-technologists
> together, and making technology less scary for the latter. I think
> this is pretty limited view, I think it should be more about allowing
> culture to construct its own technology.
>
>> There are a number of other constructions of course:
>>
>> audience( music( programming ) ) (3)
>>
>> audience( programming( music ) ) (4)
>>
>> audience( music * programming ) (5)
>>
>> [music] -> ([programminmg]) -> [audience] (6)
>>
>> f( audience, music, programming ) (7)
>>
>>
>> My first thought was (6) (programming as a medium through which to express
>> music to an audience). But perhaps (7) is the most accurate.
>
> Yes, I think the audience's role in live coding performance is really
> important. They are constructing the culture around it.
>
> So I think it's not important for an individual audience member to be
> a programmer to enjoy a live coding performance. But, from my
> experience in Mexico City, I think it *is* important for there to be
> many live coders in the audience. There through regular events,
> workshops and courses they have built up a culture of practice, with a
> shared developing aesthetic, and healthy gender balance. That's a real
> game changer in terms of coming together to make music with code to
> push things forward along a shared Wundt curve..
>
> One more observation: you can't read code while dancing.
It's pretty hard to write code while dancing too... maybe not impossible
though.
Ross.
Received on Sun Jan 13 2013 - 16:03:09 GMT